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Remus Lupin: Out or In?

As a werewolf, that is. kestrelsan and I found we had differing opinions on this and so I wanted to hear what you thought.

I had just assumed that after Snape told the Slytherins in PoA, what the Slytherins knew, the school knew and what the school knew, the parents knew, and what the parents knew, everyone else knew as soon as they went down to the pub and so it was common knowledge in the UK WW.

But Kest thought the info wouldn't travel so easily and might be considered just a rumour, so that by OotP, most people still wouldn't know that Remus was a werewolf.

I think we'd both assumed our opinions were commonly held and were surprised that we were in such disagreement! So, Gentle Fangirl or Fanboy, what do you think?

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He's been outed. They stated he couldn't get a job because of the restrictive laws enacted against werewolves by Umbridge and Fudge. If he were closeted, that wouldn't be a problem. Also, he had no problem talking to the new werewolf in St. Mungo's (such a very Lupin thing to do. Heart Lupin.)

Given that Hogwarts holds a generation's worth of kids - most of the British wizarding kids between 11 and 18, it would be impossible for the rumor NOT to spread far and wide.

And can't you imagine the Pravda'sProphet's headline?

No, he's been truly outed.

Yeah, it seems to me that once the kids know, everyone knows.

I thought the first and not the second. Because he was like revealing the secret was supposed to start a lot of problems. Like telling the Slytherines would end up with all sorts of students and parents knowing, someone would notify the Daily Prophet, it would be talked about among all parents and adults everywhere who were rleated to the school and it would spiderweb out across the world from there

The Wizarding World seems quite well connected -- I think the news would spread fairly quickly.

I figured he was out, that everyone knew after Snape let it slip. Because you know Malfoy fils et pere spread that around, even if other parents didn't.

Coupled with whatever Umbridge had done regarding werewolves and working, it meant he really couldn't get a job of any sort after PoA, because he couldn't even lie about it.

Which of course begs the question of how the registry works, and can potential employers look up folks to see if they're registered, and whether he was registered before PoA or not.

Yes, I've often wondered about the registry and the other MoM werewolf things. There's so much misinformation about werewolves in the first few books that I also wonder what the average wizard thinks about them.

I think he's probably fairly out, but not by choice. I mean, he has to be registered, doesn't he? And presumably there are background checks at most jobs he would apply for, and probably something in the werewolf laws that says he has to disclose his werewolfness under certain circumstances, like to a prospective employer, to a prospective landlord, to a prospective spouse... I don't know, I'm throwing possibilities out at random, but I would imagine that when you're registered on what are probably public records as a public menace, it's hard to keep it quiet.

In fact, helpfully, my brain has drawn an analogy to registration of sex offenders. Your name is on a list somewhere, pretty much forever, and the public has access to the list, so people know something about you that makes them not want to hire you, let you teach their kids in school, or live in your neighborhood.

That's a pretty good analogy, I think. And of course we're sympathetic to Lupin because he's such a nice guy, but he's also very dangerous. It's hard to think of what a good solution would be.

I think Lupin was definitely outed at the end of PoA -- his prediction of letters calling for his job felt accurate and not histrionic. (I don't remember if, in the book, there actually had already been letters. I could get off my butt and go check, but I'm too lazy right now.)

Yes, I agree. And really, would those parents have been so wrong, given what happened? It's a pretty complex situation.

As a semi-out bi girl, I can say there's varying degrees of out. I strongly suspect that knowing people, "Dumbledore actually had a werewolf teaching at Hogwarts" would rather shove out, "his name is Remus Lupin". Some people -might- remember. But as a whole of britain thing... nah.

I'm reasonably sure several people have met me online and have me categorized as the medieval nut and have forgot about the fact that I pull girls every now and again.

True enough, though I don't think the parallel between sexual orientation and lycanthropy really holds in this instance. Maybe if you were a teacher and the people who found out were rabidly homophobic -- I think they'd be more likely to remember your name in that case rather than just people you know online. But I agree that not everyone would necessarily know it was Remus. I suppose it depends on the size of the WW too, which we really don't know.

Given that it was Slytherins told, I've assumed that it wasn't instantly known across the wizarding world. If Gryffindor had been told, it would be, because they talk to everyone, but Slytherins are a lot more insular. They're much less likely to share the information (at least until it can do them the most good) and when they do, their reputation for less than perfect honesty means they won't automatically be believed. They probably would tell their parents, but since most of them were also Slytherin, the same applies. The boundaries between Slytherin and the other houses are getting stronger, not weaker.

I'd say the knowledge would trickle out eventually - *some* Slytherins/Slytherin parents know those in other houses enough to tell them that kind of information - but the nature of the source will definitely influence how it spreads. Lupin's line about how parents won't want him teaching their children is true, but I think it's a verypre-emptive reaction rather than a neccessity at that point. He knows that at some point it will be common knowledge, and that when it happens he will be at the wrong end of a mob with pitchforks, but he has no way of knowing when that will be and I think he's very much erring on the side of caution.

So by OotP? I don't think it would be common knowledge. At best it might be a rumour, but I think more likely very few people would have any idea. Probably more known among the professional community, what with the registry and everything - the parallel I'm thinking of is of a story I recall about a man with AIDS - he was effectively blackballed among his profession, but nobody took out a newspaper advert to the world about his condition. So I'll go with the wishy-washy 'rumour gaining strength but not yet common household knowledge'. [g] I'll also agree with alexandralynch that it's more likely to be common knowledge that there was a werewolf teaching there, than who it was. Parents who aren't connected with the source are, I think, more likely to latch on the crucial fact that the threat is now gone from the school than details of who it was.

Of course, this whole debate relies on the assumption that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the UK, which has not yet been proved to my satisfaction ;)

Don't know if that helps, but it's the perspective me and my HP-interested friends tend to take on this matter. (Just passing through via friendsfriends, was too interested not to comment :) ) I am intrigued to see the other point of view so prevalent, but then I'm not a big part of HP fandom.

I've just checked PoA and it just says that Snape let it slip at breakfast, not, as I thought, that he'd told the Slytherins specifically. So I guess we can assume that all the school knows at the very least.

Jeez, I *hope* he's out! Considering the damage he caused when trying to hide it...

I'm pretty sure he's been outed, yes; it's hard for me to believe that anything that's common knowledge among the Slytherins wouldn't have spread to the rest of the school. It might be considered a rumor at first, but Snape would certainly confirm it if asked (and I suspect Dumbledore wouldn't actually lie about it, if someone asked him). That said, people who are just meeting him or only know him casually may still not know, if they aren't connected to Hogwarts and don't have any reason to investigate his background.

I think that sounds like the most reasonable situation. He did seem to be able to travel around without being stoned in the streets or anything.

If he was out to all of the wizarding world, someone would have kicked up a fuss at the *start* of PoA. Some people knew in the 1980's, but it's my assumption that even if Snape said something about it, he wasn't believed. I think Dumbledore would have lied on Remus' behalf, too-- Dumbledore isn't big with the spreading of honest truths, especially when misinformation furthers his own ends. Snape knew, but wasn't believed by his contempories ("oh, it's just Snivellus looking for some attention/ trying to scare the first years/ getting paranoid"); Dumbledore may or may not have admitted the truth to him, though if he did he's bound to have pointed out how safely Remus was being kept away from the others. Depending how early we believe Snape secrectly signed on to Dumbledore's side, he may have been pursuaded to keep it quiet entirely.

Just my two Knuts.

Except we know Snape didn't keep quiet, and the start of PoA is irrelevant - we know that Snape told the Slytherins at the END of PoA that Lupin was a werewolf.

I'm with the folks who think he's (unwillingly) out, by the by, since he's affected by Umbridge's law & whatnot.

I can't remember...was Remus poor and constantly unemployed because he had to disappear once a month (thus being unable to hold down a steady job), or because employers wouldn't hire a werewolf in the first place?

IIRC, the line in PoA was something about "unable to get steady work because of what I am"- so it could be either, really. Or a hybrid of the two, where his regular absences on the full moon lead people to figure it out, eventually, and fire him.

He's out. As of the end of PoA, his werewolfism is in the grape-vine, an entire generation of kids knows about him *and* have been telling their parents. He may not be instantly recognizable, but anyone willing to check would have his werewolfism confirmed.

However, before the end of PoA, I don't think he was out, and he might not even have been *registered*. As bad as the Ministry is, there is a division called Werewolf Support Services -- if Remus could go to them, why would Snape being making the Wolfsbane for him?

I wish we knew more about the MoM in all of this. All of the info is so vague. I think that in this instance, Snape was making the potion because it was more convenient than going to the MoM every month to get doses. Just my theory, of course.

This might be me misreading the book, but I always had this vision of Snape standing up in the middle of breakfast, calling the children to order and just announcing it.

But even if that's not the case, if enough children were told, and they told their parents and their parents told their friends "Isn't it dreadful, Hogwarts is hiring werewolves now," and so on it would become common knowledge, if not exactly who was the werewolf then at least someone who was recently let go from Hogwarts is and there wouldn't be many people in that position.

Hi - got here from one of those this-linked-to-that-linked-to-here-linked-to-there-linked surfing experiences - just wanted to kick in my two cents.

I'm pretty sure Lupin is out by OotP because of his quote at dinner - p94 American:

"And I'm not a very popular dinner guest with most of the community," said Lupin. "It's an occupational hazard of being a werewolf."

I'm guessing he was outed by Snape telling the kids, since if it was common knowledge in the wizarding world before PoA, he couldn't have gotten the job - no way would Malfoy Sr. have let a werewolf teach at Hogwarts without throwing a huge stink.

He is definitely out. On page 308 of the American hardcover version of OoTP, there's that article about Umbridge becoming High Inquisitor and the paper is mentioning Dumbledore's "eccentric decisions."

"Among those 'eccentric decisions' are undoubtedly the controversial appointments...including the hiring of werewolf Remus Lupin...",/I>

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