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Halrloprillalar

You can call me Hal.

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Your own personal Remus.
hal
prillalar

It had ocurred to me before, and was brought home when working on the Snape/Lupin, that I have very particular ideas about Remus's characterisation, more so than any other HP character. While they begin in the books, I've extrapolated a fair amount.

Not only that, but it seems to me that a lot of other people do the same thing and they don't always extrapolate in the same directions as me. Even kestrelsan and I, who often GMTA to a frightening degree, have our differences of opinion about Professor Lupin.

So when I read a story about him and find that the characterisation doesn't sit quite right with me, I sometimes realise it's just my own ideas about Remus that are being violated and not the book characterisation. But that doesn't make it any easier for me to deal.

I wonder how prevalent this is in the fandom. I think my own flist includes a lot of people who are more about the MWPP generation than the kids (I swing both ways, baby) so I doubt I could make a good judgement. But among those people, I wonder if there are more "personal Remuses" than Snapes or Siriuses.

He's a quiet man, an introvert, I'd say, and so it's harder to paint him in quick broad strokes. Unlike Snape or Sirius, he's someone I would actually want to know, to be friends with. So perhaps that makes me think about him more. He's more real than fantastic, lycanthropy notwithstanding.

Do you have similar reactions? Or is there another character you feel this way about? In other fandoms?

Some facts about Remus J Lupin, according to Hal:

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

* Remus has no close family living.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.


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Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

If you feel like 'splaining, I'd love to why you think so. :-)

'Cause Shacklebolt is pretty.

Really, that's fairly close to the truth. I'm doing what I always end up doing -- making myself an OC that's not an OC by taking a very minor character and pairing him up with a more major character. Like Pendrell and Skinner. Like Luke and Wedge. Scully and Holly. Jack and Thor. *g*

I hope to insidiously make my own chracterisation the accepted fanon. (Of course, that means I should write about him more...)

What we saw of Kingsley made me think that he was a strong man, calm and sane. Which seems to me to be just what Remus needs now. Someone *new*, who hasn't been part of the whole MWPP thing, someone *alive* and *good* and *sane*. And hot.

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Infidel!!!! *flames* *defriends* *starts vicious rumours about*

Yes, this is just what I mean. :) I don't think anything on either of our lists is contrary to canon. I wonder, though, if we made similar lists about Sirius or Snape, if they'd differ quite so much.,

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This has started to happen to me a *lot* more often than it used to. Not so much in HP fandom (my Draco doesn't actually *exist* in my fiction, because he's a total negative-product. That is, he has gained characteristics pretty much entirely from my reading soppy redemptionista fic that made me say "no. No. NO, dammit, NO!"), but... yeah. I've yet to write Batman the same way twice, and yet most other people's Batman characterizations work my *last* nerve. Often for no logical reason.

Same thing with Tim/Robin III.

I *do* have an internally-consistent Flash, and Everyone Else Is Wrong.

In the old days, it was more like "this is Xander! And that's Xander, too! And that one over there! Everything is Xander, yay!"

I was a much happier reader then, and while part of the problem is that there's a) a really *tiny* (relatively) amount of DC fanfic, and b) the good-to-crap ratio is a lot sadder... that's not all of it.

I'm pickier. I'm not sure if it's part of my continuing fannish evolution, or if I'm just missing my tranquilizers, or if I'm just more focused about my obsessions, or all of the above. The end result is the same: I'm reading pretty much nothing within my fandom and liking less.

/blather

That is, he has gained characteristics pretty much entirely from my reading soppy redemptionista fic that made me say "no. No. NO, dammit, NO!"

I'm starting to see versions of this more in more in various fandoms. Antifanon, I guess it would be; the swinging of the characterization pendulum all the way back to center and then somewhere off into a different direction that's not really on the canon map, either. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good -- depends greatly on the writer, of course -- but definitely developed via reaction to the fanon. I'm fascinated by it.

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I have a whole backstory in my head about Remus. It changes sometimes, depending on the needs of my stories, but there are certain things that don't really change, and I can't stand reading fic where certain basic things I believe about him aren't included.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

Yes. Except, no.

I tend to write him as gay, usually (unless i have a specific reason for putting him with a woman), but sometimes I wonder. Because I think he may have had liaisons with women while he was alone for twelve years, and as his salient characteristic is his need to be liked, I can see him accepting women lovers because they want him, and he wants to be wanted.

But he totally pings me as gay.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

He's been celibate since Sirius escaped (with a few failed relationships and some anonymous sex in the twelve years previous). Except when having (lots and lots of) sex with Sirius. *g*

I think he's also very much the dominant one sexually in almost any relationship (regardless of sexual position. If anyone ever topped from below, it'd be Remus), and while I don't think it's directly a function of being a werewolf (i.e., the wolf asserting his primacy in the pack or whatever), I think it comes from his need for control. I think only with someone he trusts implicitly ::coughSiriuscough:: would he give that up.

I think he had a "lost" period directly following the events of 10/31/81 which included a lot of anonymous sex (or really, sex with people who reminded him of Sirius)

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Yes. Though not a fussy one. A practical man who teaches a practical subject.

And he's a book-lover.

He is not, however, the male Hermione.

* Remus has no close family living.

Yes, because otherwise, he wouldn't have been *so* bad off. I do like to speculate on a twin, killed when he was bitten, just because the name lends itself, but I've never actually included it in any of my fic.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

Yes. Sigh. Not even Molly, who should.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

Yes.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Post-veil? I think you mean Bill Weasley. *g*

I'd also add that Remus is about as emotionally repressed as anyone ever; he exerts a great deal of control and has spent his life shaping a "safe" and "harmless" persona to counteract any doubt that he is not human.

I have a hard time believing, after Sirius's death, that he will ever really open up to anyone again.

He's as mischievous as the others were, but hides it better. Because he taunts Snape quite effectively and apparently enjoys every minute of it in PoA.

He has no respect for authority but has finally learned to wield it effectively.

He's sensitive, in that he's spends a lot of time watching people and so is really good at reading them, letting them lead the conversation, and fading into the woodwork when need be. This gives him the ability to take the control he needs in situations where someone has to (e.g., the Shrieking Shack in PoA - except for Snape's interruption, Remus is in control the whole time). He's smart, thinks well under pressure, and has a lovely dry sense of humor that tends toward the morbid.

I will admit to making him Giles-y on occasion, probably more than is warranted.

I could go on for days. *g*

I just hate "girly weepy I couldn't live without you Siri" Remus and nervous, tentative, shrinking violet Remus. I also hate when people forget his sense of humor and make him a nervous nelly who fusses over everything like a hausfrau whose mother-in-law is coming to visit.

Because I think he may have had liaisons with women while he was alone for twelve years, and as his salient characteristic is his need to be liked, I can see him accepting women lovers because they want him, and he wants to be wanted.

I think I could accept this, depending on how it was handled. But I'd take a lot of convincing. Certainly, I think he'd only be in love with a man.

Remus/Tonks is something I just can't contemplate, b/c in Hal's World of Correct Canon, she's gay too.

Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Post-veil? I think you mean Bill Weasley.


Weasley, schmeasley! Go back to Egypt, Bill, and play with Daniel Jackson. *koff*

He's as mischievous as the others were, but hides it better. Because he taunts Snape quite effectively and apparently enjoys every minute of it in PoA.

That's interesting. And while I don't disagree, I don't remember him striking me that way in PoA. Though I was always a bit confused about the scene with Harry, Snape, and the Map. I'm not sure how much Snape knew and how much Remus knew Snape knew and how much Snape knew Remus knew Snape knew. Hmm.

I just hate "girly weepy I couldn't live without you Siri" Remus

Conveniently forgetting that Remus lived without Sirius for a long, long time. Remus copes. He always has, he always will. Of the four of them, he was the coper.

And such a nice boy.

I love Remus discussions. I will never ever understand the nature of the Remus/Sirius relationship no matter how hard I try so I've given up on trying to write the pairing.

And it's hard with anyone in the MWPP era, because we miss out on a whole section of their lives.

So let's see.
Remus is gay.
Hmm. Like all my characters, they're gay because I like slash. Where did you get the impression that Remus is gay? To me, the man just seems disinterested in sex in general. Which means I agree with your second point. Furthermore, I think that Remus has the discipline to withstand the lack of *anything* not just sex.

Agree with your academic point. I also like to think that he was never as talented as James and Sirius.Agree with your next two points after that too.

What I find really hard to characterise is the fact that Remus is not shy. Shy people do not become school prefects at Hogwarts. But the idea that he's self posessed (when he's teaching etc) doesn't jive always with the fact that he has to hide his lycanthropy etc. It's sort of hard to deal with characterise Remus The Man vs Remus The Student. Because I find they're different people, yet not much has changed.

Remus/Sirius. Hmm. I find it hard to see that 'ship during school, as much as I would like it. Sirius and James was what it was about. Sirius went to live at James' house etc. I don't know what happened when James hooked up with Lily. I don't know why Sirius betrayed Remus. I don't know what happened in the year after school. I don't know why Sirius didn't go to Remus throughout GoF and only went in the end. Even after they hugged like brothers in PoA.

Oh. I dig Kingsley too :)


Hi, I came via stellamaru's LJ - because I can't resist a Remus-discussion. Like you, I have very particular ideas about Remus's characterisation, more so than any other HP character. I am also with you on that Remus is harder to paint in quick broad strokes - I found it very difficult to write Remus for quite a long time. The results wouldn't feel right to me, and I tend to make him more emotional and vocal than he is in the books. The problem with Remus is that his reserve is interpreted in so many ways: there are those who think Remus is a feeble wall-flower who is too shy to speak up in public, those who think he's bland and boring, and those who think that there must be more to that man than his calm, polite facade lets on.

I obviously belong to the third group, and I think it is hard to maintain the characterisation as given in the books, i.e. the quiet politeness, and at the same time sketch the man behind the mask, with all his emotional ballast and hurt and anger and whatnot. This would require pulling off the mask and having him act and react in a more aggressive manner, which is wont to feel OOC.

Unlike Snape or Sirius, he's someone I would actually want to know, to be friends with.

Definitely. The reason why I am so very partial to Remus is that he works for me as an interesting character in a novel and he would, um, work for me as a real person.

Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

I find it very interesting that so many fans read Book!Remus as gay. I can see (though I don't support) the theory that Rowling coded homosexuality/AIDS in his character, but I've never felt that way when I read the novels. And I certainly never thought Remus gay from the characterisation alone. Slash changed my view only slightly: all my characters are cheerfully bisexual (as elaborated here), because I can't be bothered to deal with the RL implications and problems of coming-outs and living-in-the-closet. They deal with comparable issues already by being wizards.

Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

He's got enough self-control to efficiently suppress the libido of all Fanon!Siriuses plus Decadent!Orgy!Malfoys. I don't know whether his libido is strong or not. His self-control is stronger.

Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

My view on this is tinted by fandom: I am getting sick of university/bookstore/library worker Remus. It works OK, but I'd wish for authors to give him a different background from time to time. (Except of prostitution, which makes me cringe, because this is so essentially un-Remus.)

Remus has no close family living and Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

That is very true. Come to that, nobody seemed to worry much about Sirius, either, and some people *coughMollycough* seemed rather pissed off by his behaviour. I wonder what Molly really thinks about Remus. Judging from Ron's reaction in PoA, the Weasleys have not been brought up to like werewolves.

Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

Not necessarily. I am not a dedicated Sirius/Remus shipper, but as the majority of the fics I read (centred around Sirius, Remus and Severus) includes references to past or current relationship between them, I accept this view. Though my favourite Sirius/Remus fics are those where they get together post-Azkaban - without any previous relationships or schoolboy crushes.

Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Kingsley or Bill *g* Remus could do with someone who is calm and self-assured and not quite as damaged as his usual partners Sirius and Severus. (There might of course be horrible secrets in Kingsley's and Bill's pasts, but as long as I don't know about them, I pretend there aren't.)

Oh, and hot. Someone who's really, really hot. Remus could do with that, too.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

I actually don't have a strong opinion on Remus' sexual orientation. I'm partial to stories that pair him with Sirius or Snape, so, yeah, no problem seeing him as gay. But I also love Remus/Hermione when done well (meaning about once every 700 years, but hey, them's the breaks). I don't see him as bi, either. Or rather, I think if he *was* bi, he'd repress it and "pick a side" based on the gender of the first person he got into a relationship with.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

I'm with donnaimmaculata on that one -- it's not that his libido's not strong, it's that his self-control is stronger.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Actually, my Remus is not so much an academic at heart as he is a teacher at heart. He's genuitely talented at it, good at getting students to like, respect and trust him, at maintaining discipline without resorting to intimidation, good at imparting the information he knows. The fact that he was teaching an academic subject is mostly incidental -- he'd be equally good at teaching a purely practical skill. (And, in fact, he seemed to take a particularly practical, hands-on approach to teachng Defense, rather than a bookish one.)

* Remus has no close family living.

Yes. I think he had loving and supportive parents, and I think they can't possibly be around anymore, because there's no way they would've let him go around so underfed and shabbily dressed. My Remus is also an only child.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

Yep.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

In stories where Remus is gay, yeah, definitely. Can't get away from it.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

No comment. :-)


I love Remus.

He's the the actual leader of the Order. By which I mean, Dumbledore gives the orders, but he's the one people look to for the day to day stuff. This becomes very clear around the Grimmauld Place kitchen table, where he defuses the arguments and decides how much information to give the kids - not the parental figures of Sirius or Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. Which maybe why he has to spend so much time in the field. He's the one who makes sure the various operations work.

The word I associate the most with Remus is "quiet." He doesn't shout, he doesn't argue, he doesn't seek out attention. But you know there's a wolf beneath that surface - a wolf that burns cold. It showed in the end of PoA, when he was quite coldly prepared to kill Peter.

He loved Sirius. He loved all of them, and he spent twelve years being alone, mourning his friends, two years knowing that Peter was a live traitor instead of a dead hero and one year in Sirius' arms, duty permitting. He probably thinks of that as the best year of his life since he attended Hogwarts, second only to the year he taught there.

He loves Harry as a nephew, maybe a son. He doesn't hate Snape. He doesn't like Snape, but he doesn't hate him and never did. Which is why I think that if they ever do become lovers, (and both are gay in my mind. Not bi, but gay.)it'll be a slow, quiet thing, not the passion of enemies becoming lovers. And they'd spend more nights just being together than in grand lovemaking.

He's a born teacher and he's proud that Harry seems to be one, too.



I think it is because I am such a non-OTP'er that I am cheerfully able to accept most consistent versions of canon characters. I don't see Remus as gay, but I can accept him (and write him) that way. (I have a special place in my heart for Remus/Hermione, because I'm a Hermione, and I've always fallen for Remuses.) I think the only canon character I am unable to see as heterosexual is Snape. He's either gay or asexual. But everyone else changes according to my slashy needs.

I do despise the meek mild-mannered tea-drinking stereotype, though, because it has no basis in canon and it's boring. I see Remus as being somewhat passive-aggressive, rather controlling but preferring to exercise that control from behind the scenes.

I really don't see Remus/Sirius at all. Since most Remus/Sirius seems to be written from the point of view of "we accept this as canon, now let's continue" I am not convinced by most such stories.

a personal remus, made to order. hee

Remus, ahh, yes, someone who’s always there, someone who cares.
Cool, calm, collected. Perhaps, Mischievous in his own subtle way.
Down to earth. I always see him surrounded by autumn’s air—and dried leaves, falling and yielding in his presence. He just has that strong control going on.
He’s smart, but modest. Cunning, but not necessary evil.
He knows what he wants,
He knows what he needs. But even with that, he’s able to accept what others lead him into. Or makes you believe that your able to lead him to. Often enough, He is quite willing to make you satisfied.

He is loved, and loves in return, even though the love you have for him is not strong enough to break through his dark past. He always tends to have a shield of wall around himself. He really deserves more than he allows himself to accept.
He can make you open yourself to him, but will never do the same in return.
He has a warm, comfortable air around him that ooze out, ‘your safe with me—I’ll protect you’
Pleasant to be around, and I agree with musesfool that he would be someone who you would want to get to know, have as a friend.

With my remus, If once you have his trust, he’s yours. Forever.. but then again, it might just be you who belongs to him. He can make you loose yourself. Willingly. Oh, so willingly.

But hey, that’s just my remus. As I always say, everyone should have a remus to call their own.

ps- sorry for the doubble-take/post/comment thing, if it happens. lj is not being friendly to me.



* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

Yes. And I'm not sure why he strikes me that way so strongly. And I suspect part of what I'm reading that way is the fact that he projects "There's something about me you don't know," and we have a perfectly good explanation for that in canon, which is that he's a werewolf. And he's still gay, in my head.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

Mmm . . . yes, to the degree that there have been reasonably long stretches of time when he's decided having a relationship with anyone was just too much trouble. But I hate it when authors take this to the extreme of writing him spending twelve years doing nothing but pining over Sirius.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Yes. Which doesn't mean he's not dangerous in a fight. Hermione's an academic at heart, and she's growing up seriously scary.

* Remus has no close family living.

I think so, because first of all they'd look after him a bit, and I don't get the sense that anyone does, and second of all, I think we would have heard something about it in OotP.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

I think Molly worries about Remus, sometimes, but Remus tries to discourage her.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

I think I could, if pressed, write based on the assumption that Remus and Sirius never actually had sex before Sirius died. But I don't really want to, so I don't.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

???


Do you have similar reactions? Or is there another character you feel this way about? In other fandoms?

Percy and Remus are the HP characters that are most clearly developed in my head. I'm pretty flexible and will read widely varying characterizations, but I always recognize that this is not *my* Percy or Remus. And since OotP I also recognize that it would take a lot of work to make my Percy fit with canon Percy, but I don't care. In a way, I'm happy that JKR has left Remus more open to interpretation.

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